First off, I need to say "bad, Bad, BAD on Josh" for the example he created with the Buffy & Spike relationship, where a woman CLEARLY saying "no" actually means "Hell YES!".
That is absolutely the very LAST thing teen viewers - or men of any age - EVER needed to see modeled on TV. It's even more egregious that this pattern of interaction was repeated, week after week, within the context of a consensual, genuinely caring relationship between two people who have repeatedly literally saved one another's lives. What a horrible example to set forth, particularly within our own "Rape Culture". .
The way Josh portrays their encounters, how would ANYONE ever know WHEN Buffy's "no" genuinely MEANS 'No'?
What an especially horrible example to put forth, on a show ostensibly meant to show people how to navigate the ambiguities and difficulties of adolescence! This relationship portrayal set up uncounted numbers of men to violate the trust of women they may have genuinely cared for, because they believed, based on this awful example, that her 'no' wasn't genuine.
I myself was raped by a friend who was a huge BtVS fan, and who (being blond & blue eyed, and good looking) undoubtedly identified with the Spike character. I wasn't a fan of the show, at the time, but now, in retrospect, after watching the Spuffy arc, I now have to wonder to what extent one of the most traumatic events of my entire life may have been at least partially created by the FALSE belief that "no" sometimes (if not often) actually means "yes"?
I'm SURE (looking back on my own horrific situation) that the guy who raped me was most definitely influenced by Josh's portrayal of a "romance" - or at least consensual, and hot sexual encounters - starting out with the female clearly SAYING "No!". I have to wonder how many other women were victimized in real life, as a direct result of the confusion Josh sowed, with his incredibly dysfunctional Buffy & Spike portrayal, concerning the issue of consent?
Moving on to address what is actually going on in this scene, between these two people, given their specific romantic and sexual history together:
I agree with you 100%. Spike is NOT trying to actually rape Buffy. No way, no how.
I say that as someone who is herself a rape survivor, and has counseled young girls who have also survived sexual and other forms of abuse. I have a less than zero tolerance policy for rape or sexual coercion in any form whatsoever.
But in his defense, in this specific scenario, Spike was simply following their usual - HIGHLY DYSFUNCTIONAL - "script". In the past, Buffy always genuinely wanted him to keep pushing past her superficial "no".
It also matters hugely that in the "Buffyverse" Spike doesn't actually have the physical ability to rape Buffy. Meanwhile she has the ability to kick him through the bathroom wall if she wants to, and they are both utterly clear on that concept.
Spike isn't using "vamp strength" force on Buffy either - they're just having a little (potentially sexy) "tussle", right at the start of this encounter. As pointed out by the OP, above, EVERY ONE of their previous sexual encounters has started in much the same way, either with Buffy saying "No" but clearly Meaning "Yes!" and/or with physical violence as their "foreplay".
The instant Buffy genuinely fights back Spike indeed does get brutally slammed against the far wall of the bathroom - and at that juncture, he Immediately STOPS. He makes no attempt whatsoever to violently overcome Buffy's resistance. Moreover, he is clearly utterly horrified, once he understands she really was seriously saying "no" this time. He completely understands that he has truly transgressed and has *genuinely* crossed a boundary - for the First time in their relationship (Buffy's numerous previous "no's" notwithstanding).
Spike is clearly absolutely mortified by the entire situation. He was the gallant poet, the ultimate Victorian era "Gentleman" - always extremely courtly towards the women he loved. Spike was absolutely the farthest thing from being a rapist, whether in his original human lifetime or after he became a vampire.
Completely Agree
That is absolutely the very LAST thing teen viewers - or men of any age - EVER needed to see modeled on TV. It's even more egregious that this pattern of interaction was repeated, week after week, within the context of a consensual, genuinely caring relationship between two people who have repeatedly literally saved one another's lives. What a horrible example to set forth, particularly within our own "Rape Culture". .
The way Josh portrays their encounters, how would ANYONE ever know WHEN Buffy's "no" genuinely MEANS 'No'?
What an especially horrible example to put forth, on a show ostensibly meant to show people how to navigate the ambiguities and difficulties of adolescence! This relationship portrayal set up uncounted numbers of men to violate the trust of women they may have genuinely cared for, because they believed, based on this awful example, that her 'no' wasn't genuine.
I myself was raped by a friend who was a huge BtVS fan, and who (being blond & blue eyed, and good looking) undoubtedly identified with the Spike character. I wasn't a fan of the show, at the time, but now, in retrospect, after watching the Spuffy arc, I now have to wonder to what extent one of the most traumatic events of my entire life may have been at least partially created by the FALSE belief that "no" sometimes (if not often) actually means "yes"?
I'm SURE (looking back on my own horrific situation) that the guy who raped me was most definitely influenced by Josh's portrayal of a "romance" - or at least consensual, and hot sexual encounters - starting out with the female clearly SAYING "No!". I have to wonder how many other women were victimized in real life, as a direct result of the confusion Josh sowed, with his incredibly dysfunctional Buffy & Spike portrayal, concerning the issue of consent?
Moving on to address what is actually going on in this scene, between these two people, given their specific romantic and sexual history together:
I agree with you 100%.
Spike is NOT trying to actually rape Buffy. No way, no how.
I say that as someone who is herself a rape survivor, and has counseled young girls who have also survived sexual and other forms of abuse. I have a less than zero tolerance policy for rape or sexual coercion in any form whatsoever.
But in his defense, in this specific scenario, Spike was simply following their usual - HIGHLY DYSFUNCTIONAL - "script". In the past, Buffy always genuinely wanted him to keep pushing past her superficial "no".
It also matters hugely that in the "Buffyverse" Spike doesn't actually have the physical ability to rape Buffy. Meanwhile she has the ability to kick him through the bathroom wall if she wants to, and they are both utterly clear on that concept.
Spike isn't using "vamp strength" force on Buffy either - they're just having a little (potentially sexy) "tussle", right at the start of this encounter. As pointed out by the OP, above, EVERY ONE of their previous sexual encounters has started in much the same way, either with Buffy saying "No" but clearly Meaning "Yes!" and/or with physical violence as their "foreplay".
The instant Buffy genuinely fights back Spike indeed does get brutally slammed against the far wall of the bathroom - and at that juncture, he Immediately STOPS. He makes no attempt whatsoever to violently overcome Buffy's resistance. Moreover, he is clearly utterly horrified, once he understands she really was seriously saying "no" this time. He completely understands that he has truly transgressed and has *genuinely* crossed a boundary - for the First time in their relationship (Buffy's numerous previous "no's" notwithstanding).
Spike is clearly absolutely mortified by the entire situation. He was the gallant poet, the ultimate Victorian era "Gentleman" - always extremely courtly towards the women he loved. Spike was absolutely the farthest thing from being a rapist, whether in his original human lifetime or after he became a vampire.