dontkillspike (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
dontkillspike) wrote2017-11-05 09:44 pm
dontkillspike) wrote2017-11-05 09:44 pm
Why I Don't View the Spike/Buffy Bathroom Scene as Attempted Rape (a short essay by @jamie_marsters)
I know I could be opening up a can of worms here, so let me start this off by first stating that the following is solely my opinion & is by no means meant to be an incendiary piece to start any kind of fandom "war." It's also not meant to diminish anyone's differing opinions. I don't expect everyone (or even all that many people at all, really) to agree with me. If you DO view this scene as attempted rape/assault/whatever, then please don't view this piece as any kind of apologist/redemptionist answer to that; that's not what this is. I will never excuse that kind of behaviour in either fandom-life or real life.
I also, in no way, mean for this to devolve into a Spuffy vs Bangel argument; that's a completely separate argument (I ship them BOTH, FYI, with an overwhelming love of the OT3: Spuffangel FTW!) and it's an argument I'm well & truly over. Also, comparing Spuffy to Bangel in relation to this scene does no one any favours, as far as I've seen.
My main reason for sharing this is because, while I see many members of the fandom have a wide variety of different opinions in regards to this scene, very few have come close to how I view it. And how I've always viewed it, right from the very first airing.
I don't believe, nor have I ever, that Spike was attempting to rape Buffy, in the (now very much so) infamous "bathroom scene" from the Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode "Seeing Red" (#6.19). I believe Spike was simply following the "pattern" of every previous sexual encounter he & Buffy had ever had. The main difference being that when Buffy said "No" this time, she actually meant it.
Let's look at some of those previous sexual encounters for comparison:
Starting from their very first sexual encounter in the Season 6 episode "Smashed," (#6.9) Buffy & Spike's sex life has followed a very recognisable pattern. First violence (they beat the crap out of each other)/verbal abuse (they verbally beat the crap out of each other); Buffy declares her hatred/disgust for Spike and/or actually uses the words "Stop" & "No"; & then they, enthusiastically & consensually, bone (usually also very violently).
Even the morning after, in the next episode "Wrecked," (#6.10) follows that same pattern. Buffy declares her hatred/disgust for Spike, tells him it's never gonna happen again; actually uses the words "Stop" & "No" & then proceeds to initiate one hell of a sexy make-out session; which then ends with Buffy declaring further disgust & a threat to kill Spike should he tell anyone about the aforementioned sexy times (see the end of the above clip, or the transcript below).
Cut to later that same episode & Buffy comes running to Spike for help in finding Dawn; while looking for Rack's cloaked hideout they bicker, with Buffy eventually declaring she wants Spike completely out of her life; & then, when they do find Dawn, she turns to Spike to help her get Dawn to the hospital, leaving him to take care of Dawn on his own while she confronts Willow.
This pattern of conflicting "get out of my life"/"wait, take care of my sister" back & forth is another continuing theme of their relationship, that can be nothing but confusing & frustrating for Spike. (I raise this point, not to excuse any kind of behaviour, but because it's a direct comparison to their sexual encounters; that constant "No, I don't want it"/"Violently enthusiastic sex" that occurs throughout their relationship during this season)
The following episode "Gone" (#6.11) begins with the very same type of encounter: Buffy tries to initiate violence, Spike gets to groping, Buffy (again) says the words "Stop that" while sighing in pleasure & this time, just for something different, they're interrupted by Xander (see clip below).
It's, interestingly, later in this episode where their roles are virtually reversed. After having invisible sexy times, Spike is the one who tells Buffy to "Push off" after realising she was only there because he couldn't "see her," she then proceeds to ignore his protests & initiates some more sexy times (see below):
In the next episode "Doublemeat Palace" (#6.12) we see Spike visit Buffy's new place of work where she, again, tells him to "Go away" & then proceeds to screw him against the alleyway wall.
"Dead Things" (#6.13) begins in Spike's crypt where we see the aftermath of Buffy & Spike's most recent sexy times (the violent beginnings are only heavily implied here, we don't see it; although we hear the end of their violent sexual encounter). We also get to see Spike & Buffy "have a conversation" that actually results in them both pointing out how violence plays such a huge part in their sex life:
Again, later in this episode, we see yet another sexual encounter follow the usual script. Buffy says "Don't," Spike tells her "Stop me," & then they bone, while Spike whispers not-so-sweet nothings in Buffy's ear about how she "belongs in the dark" with him:
This episode also shows us, arguably, the least violent sexual encounter between Spike & Buffy, but which proves only to be a nightmare of Buffy's. The most violent aspects of her nightmare tend to be directed at Katrina (the girl she accidentally kills in the episode), not Spike.
In "Older and Far Away" (#6.14), whilst there isn't any actual sex in this episode, we do see the pattern continue:
"As You Were" (#6.15), again, sees the episode begin with a very familiar pattern. This time Buffy says "No" before Spike can even make the suggestion of sexy times; & continually says variations of "No" throughout the conversation, until they (you guessed it) bone!
Another interesting sidenote, the sex scene we see later in this episode (The "Tell me you love me" scene) is the first & only time we see any sexual encounter between Spike & Buffy that doesn't contain some variation of Buffy (or Spike) saying "No." Seven episodes (or several months in show time) & this is the first & only time that happens!
The end of this episode is where we see Buffy call off her relationship with Spike, and to seemingly actually mean it this time. And we see Spike realising that she actually means it this time.
"Entropy" (#6.18) has no sex between Buffy & Spike, but it does have an exchange between them where Buffy admits she knows Spike would never willingly hurt her. Which speaks volumes, really:
Now we get to the actual episode "Seeing Red" (#6.19) itself.
After Dawn confronts Spike about his dalliance with Anya, asking him how he could do that if he really loved Buffy, Spike's prompted to go & apologise to Buffy. Which, after asking after her well-being (she's obviously hurt), he does:
That's his motivation for going to see her. His only motivation. Further into the conversation & we get Buffy admitting, for the first time, that she does have feelings for Spike:
This is obviously what prompts Spike into believing a return to their usual history of sexual encounters is the way to go. Buffy's just admitted that she cares about him, & given their previous sexual encounters have been predicated on Buffy declaring the exact opposite, getting back to sex seems the obvious answer to Spike. Also, given that all of their previous sexual encounters have begun with Buffy saying "No," sometimes repeatedly, this, to Spike, seems to be following the usual script. Even the violence with which this encounter takes place is completely following their previous pattern.
We, as an audience, are aware that the previous times Buffy has said "No" she didn't actually mean it; just as we, as an audience, having seen what Buffy has gone through earlier in this episode (& in the preceding episodes, such as her complete mind-fuck in "Normal Again"), understand that this time when Buffy says "No" she does actually mean it. But Spike has no way of knowing that. All Spike has to go off of is their previous violent, verbally abusive & consensual sexual encounters, which all started the exact same way this scene does. Buffy says "No" & then they bone.
Spike's above expression is often interpreted as Spike's horror at realising what he's done, and I don't disagree with that, but I think it's not just that. This expression is Spike realising that Buffy actually means "No" this time, and then realising, with horror, how his actions will be construed by Buffy as a result of her actually meaning it. He had no way of knowing prior to Buffy physically kicking him off of her & looking so upset, that his actions were anything other than their usual means of initiating sex.
Further to that, when Spike realises that Buffy actually meant "No" this time, he backs off; he stays backed off. And then afterwards, he leaves to regain his soul; which I think gets glossed over quite a bit. The fact that a soulless evil being chooses to go through torturous trials in order to regain his soul is actually a huge deal! He's (to our knowledge) the only one to ever do that. There can really be no greater sign of remorse than that, & yet he goes so many steps further in order to never be that kind of monster towards Buffy ever again. Because he's never been that kind of monster before. In all of the tales of Spike's previous history, rape or sexual assault were never a part of it. He's killed, maimed & tortured, sure, but never rape.
[You'll notice I've not brought up the "Spike doesn't have a soul" argument, & that's because I believe that even soulless Spike would call "bullshit" on that. I don't think any version of Spike, soulless or not, would ever intentionally attempt to rape, or sexually assault, anyone. I believe violence has likely always played a huge part in his sexual encounters, but never rape (at least not with him being the rapist). I think Spike's soulless nature is what lends itself to the violent nature of his sex-life, but even soulless, he would draw the line.]
So, in conclusion, no, I don't view Spike's actions in that scene as attempted rape. With all the evidence available to him, he was simply initiating a regular (for them) sexual encounter with someone who had repeatedly told him no & then had sex with him.
P.S. I've ummed & aahed over sharing my opinions on this for years, but for whatever reason, I've finally attempted to put it in to words. This is my first time ever writing anything like this, & I tried to be as concise & clear as possible, but I may have gotten rambley at certain points, so I hope it all makes sense. Also, if you see any typos, let me know!
Credit to BuffyWorld for the transcript excerpts
I also, in no way, mean for this to devolve into a Spuffy vs Bangel argument; that's a completely separate argument (I ship them BOTH, FYI, with an overwhelming love of the OT3: Spuffangel FTW!) and it's an argument I'm well & truly over. Also, comparing Spuffy to Bangel in relation to this scene does no one any favours, as far as I've seen.
My main reason for sharing this is because, while I see many members of the fandom have a wide variety of different opinions in regards to this scene, very few have come close to how I view it. And how I've always viewed it, right from the very first airing.
I don't believe, nor have I ever, that Spike was attempting to rape Buffy, in the (now very much so) infamous "bathroom scene" from the Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode "Seeing Red" (#6.19). I believe Spike was simply following the "pattern" of every previous sexual encounter he & Buffy had ever had. The main difference being that when Buffy said "No" this time, she actually meant it.
Let's look at some of those previous sexual encounters for comparison:
Starting from their very first sexual encounter in the Season 6 episode "Smashed," (#6.9) Buffy & Spike's sex life has followed a very recognisable pattern. First violence (they beat the crap out of each other)/verbal abuse (they verbally beat the crap out of each other); Buffy declares her hatred/disgust for Spike and/or actually uses the words "Stop" & "No"; & then they, enthusiastically & consensually, bone (usually also very violently).
Even the morning after, in the next episode "Wrecked," (#6.10) follows that same pattern. Buffy declares her hatred/disgust for Spike, tells him it's never gonna happen again; actually uses the words "Stop" & "No" & then proceeds to initiate one hell of a sexy make-out session; which then ends with Buffy declaring further disgust & a threat to kill Spike should he tell anyone about the aforementioned sexy times (see the end of the above clip, or the transcript below).
Buffy pushes his hand away, struggles against him.
BUFFY: Stop!
SPIKE: (grinning) Make me.
BUFFY: No! No!
She continues struggling for about another half second and then grabs his face and kisses him. She puts her arms around his neck and moans. They kiss for a moment.
Cut to later that same episode & Buffy comes running to Spike for help in finding Dawn; while looking for Rack's cloaked hideout they bicker, with Buffy eventually declaring she wants Spike completely out of her life; & then, when they do find Dawn, she turns to Spike to help her get Dawn to the hospital, leaving him to take care of Dawn on his own while she confronts Willow.
This pattern of conflicting "get out of my life"/"wait, take care of my sister" back & forth is another continuing theme of their relationship, that can be nothing but confusing & frustrating for Spike. (I raise this point, not to excuse any kind of behaviour, but because it's a direct comparison to their sexual encounters; that constant "No, I don't want it"/"Violently enthusiastic sex" that occurs throughout their relationship during this season)
The following episode "Gone" (#6.11) begins with the very same type of encounter: Buffy tries to initiate violence, Spike gets to groping, Buffy (again) says the words "Stop that" while sighing in pleasure & this time, just for something different, they're interrupted by Xander (see clip below).
It's, interestingly, later in this episode where their roles are virtually reversed. After having invisible sexy times, Spike is the one who tells Buffy to "Push off" after realising she was only there because he couldn't "see her," she then proceeds to ignore his protests & initiates some more sexy times (see below):
In the next episode "Doublemeat Palace" (#6.12) we see Spike visit Buffy's new place of work where she, again, tells him to "Go away" & then proceeds to screw him against the alleyway wall.
"Dead Things" (#6.13) begins in Spike's crypt where we see the aftermath of Buffy & Spike's most recent sexy times (the violent beginnings are only heavily implied here, we don't see it; although we hear the end of their violent sexual encounter). We also get to see Spike & Buffy "have a conversation" that actually results in them both pointing out how violence plays such a huge part in their sex life:
SPIKE: Well, isn't this usually the part where you ... kick me in the head and run out, virtue fluttering?
BUFFY: That's the plan ... (embarrassed) ...soon as my legs start working.
Again, later in this episode, we see yet another sexual encounter follow the usual script. Buffy says "Don't," Spike tells her "Stop me," & then they bone, while Spike whispers not-so-sweet nothings in Buffy's ear about how she "belongs in the dark" with him:
This episode also shows us, arguably, the least violent sexual encounter between Spike & Buffy, but which proves only to be a nightmare of Buffy's. The most violent aspects of her nightmare tend to be directed at Katrina (the girl she accidentally kills in the episode), not Spike.
In "Older and Far Away" (#6.14), whilst there isn't any actual sex in this episode, we do see the pattern continue:
Spike walks up to her, smirking. He tries to take her hands but she pulls them away. But she is smiling too.
BUFFY: Stop it. Someone's gonna see.
She walks toward the kitchen. Spike follows, stops her at the doorway, putting one hand on the wall beside her head to block her way.
SPIKE: Mm-hmm.
He puts his other hand on her shoulder, runs it down her arm, takes her hand and pulls it onto his thigh.
"As You Were" (#6.15), again, sees the episode begin with a very familiar pattern. This time Buffy says "No" before Spike can even make the suggestion of sexy times; & continually says variations of "No" throughout the conversation, until they (you guessed it) bone!
BUFFY: No, Spike.
SPIKE: No? What kind of answer is that, you haven't even heard the question yet.
BUFFY: I don't have to. We both know what you're thinking.
SPIKE: (grins) And we both know ... that I'm not the only one thinking it.
He puts his hand out as if to grab her coat collar, and leans in as if to kiss her.
Buffy slaps his hand away.
BUFFY: No! Not here.
SPIKE: Why not? (pouting)
BUFFY: Dawn. (looks toward the house) She's inside waiting for dinner, she's counting on me. I'm not letting her down by letting you in.
SPIKE: So it's the fear of getting caught, then, is it?
BUFFY: Reason number one on a very long list. (turns to go)
SPIKE: Needn't be an obstacle.
He takes her hand and pulls her toward the tree. Longer shot of the two of them moving along the side of the building.
BUFFY: (sighs) Spike, I mean it. Come on.
SPIKE: I hear you're serious. So am I. I want you ... you want me...
Cut to a closer shot as Buffy has her back up against the tree and Spike is right in her face.
SPIKE: ...I can't go inside, so ... maybe the time is right ... for you to come outside.
Buffy sighs, looks at the house, then back at Spike. He slowly leans in to kiss her.
Cut to a long shot again. They kiss, Buffy drops the paper bag on the ground, and Spike pulls her around so that the tree obscures them from our view.
Another interesting sidenote, the sex scene we see later in this episode (The "Tell me you love me" scene) is the first & only time we see any sexual encounter between Spike & Buffy that doesn't contain some variation of Buffy (or Spike) saying "No." Seven episodes (or several months in show time) & this is the first & only time that happens!
The end of this episode is where we see Buffy call off her relationship with Spike, and to seemingly actually mean it this time. And we see Spike realising that she actually means it this time.
"Entropy" (#6.18) has no sex between Buffy & Spike, but it does have an exchange between them where Buffy admits she knows Spike would never willingly hurt her. Which speaks volumes, really:
SPIKE: (quietly) I don't hurt you.
He walks a few steps away.
BUFFY: I know.
SPIKE: No, you don't. I've tried to make it clear to you, but you won't see it. (pauses) Something happened to me. The way I feel ... about you ... it's different. And no matter how hard you try to convince yourself it isn't, it's real.
BUFFY: I think it is.
Beat. He looks at her.
BUFFY: For you.
Now we get to the actual episode "Seeing Red" (#6.19) itself.
After Dawn confronts Spike about his dalliance with Anya, asking him how he could do that if he really loved Buffy, Spike's prompted to go & apologise to Buffy. Which, after asking after her well-being (she's obviously hurt), he does:
SPIKE: (softly) I'm sorry. Not that it matters any more, but I needed you to know that.
BUFFY: Why?
SPIKE: Because I care about you.
BUFFY: Then you might want to try the not sleeping with my friends.
SPIKE: I didn't go to Anya for that. I was looking for a spell.
BUFFY: (outraged) You were going to use a spell on me?
SPIKE: (sighs, exasperated) It wasn't for you! I wanted something . (puts hand on his chest) Anything to make these feelings stop. (angrier) I just wanted it to stop!
That's his motivation for going to see her. His only motivation. Further into the conversation & we get Buffy admitting, for the first time, that she does have feelings for Spike:
BUFFY: (calmer) I have feelings for you. I do. But it's not love. I could never trust you enough for it to be love.
SPIKE: (laughing) Trust is for old marrieds, Buffy. (Buffy rolling her eyes) Great love is wild ... and passionate and dangerous. It burns and consumes.
BUFFY: Until there's nothing left. Love like that doesn't last.
SPIKE: (pacing) I know you feel like I do. You don't have to hide it anymore.
BUFFY: (rolling her eyes) Spike, please stop this.
SPIKE: (whispers) Let yourself feel it.
This is obviously what prompts Spike into believing a return to their usual history of sexual encounters is the way to go. Buffy's just admitted that she cares about him, & given their previous sexual encounters have been predicated on Buffy declaring the exact opposite, getting back to sex seems the obvious answer to Spike. Also, given that all of their previous sexual encounters have begun with Buffy saying "No," sometimes repeatedly, this, to Spike, seems to be following the usual script. Even the violence with which this encounter takes place is completely following their previous pattern.
We, as an audience, are aware that the previous times Buffy has said "No" she didn't actually mean it; just as we, as an audience, having seen what Buffy has gone through earlier in this episode (& in the preceding episodes, such as her complete mind-fuck in "Normal Again"), understand that this time when Buffy says "No" she does actually mean it. But Spike has no way of knowing that. All Spike has to go off of is their previous violent, verbally abusive & consensual sexual encounters, which all started the exact same way this scene does. Buffy says "No" & then they bone.
Spike's above expression is often interpreted as Spike's horror at realising what he's done, and I don't disagree with that, but I think it's not just that. This expression is Spike realising that Buffy actually means "No" this time, and then realising, with horror, how his actions will be construed by Buffy as a result of her actually meaning it. He had no way of knowing prior to Buffy physically kicking him off of her & looking so upset, that his actions were anything other than their usual means of initiating sex.
Further to that, when Spike realises that Buffy actually meant "No" this time, he backs off; he stays backed off. And then afterwards, he leaves to regain his soul; which I think gets glossed over quite a bit. The fact that a soulless evil being chooses to go through torturous trials in order to regain his soul is actually a huge deal! He's (to our knowledge) the only one to ever do that. There can really be no greater sign of remorse than that, & yet he goes so many steps further in order to never be that kind of monster towards Buffy ever again. Because he's never been that kind of monster before. In all of the tales of Spike's previous history, rape or sexual assault were never a part of it. He's killed, maimed & tortured, sure, but never rape.
[You'll notice I've not brought up the "Spike doesn't have a soul" argument, & that's because I believe that even soulless Spike would call "bullshit" on that. I don't think any version of Spike, soulless or not, would ever intentionally attempt to rape, or sexually assault, anyone. I believe violence has likely always played a huge part in his sexual encounters, but never rape (at least not with him being the rapist). I think Spike's soulless nature is what lends itself to the violent nature of his sex-life, but even soulless, he would draw the line.]
So, in conclusion, no, I don't view Spike's actions in that scene as attempted rape. With all the evidence available to him, he was simply initiating a regular (for them) sexual encounter with someone who had repeatedly told him no & then had sex with him.
P.S. I've ummed & aahed over sharing my opinions on this for years, but for whatever reason, I've finally attempted to put it in to words. This is my first time ever writing anything like this, & I tried to be as concise & clear as possible, but I may have gotten rambley at certain points, so I hope it all makes sense. Also, if you see any typos, let me know!
Credit to BuffyWorld for the transcript excerpts
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This was a great read! Thanks for writing/sharing.
: )
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My opinion on this scene is kinda weird. I believe the rape part for Buffy's side... or Dawn or Xander and everyone else's. I believe it's not rape for Spike in the sense that violence was always part of it with Buffy and even before Buffy.And Buffy, deep down, knows the truth... Except, this time, she really meant no and it was a whole lot confusing. She wasn't in her right state of mind just before that and well, Spike couldn't understand her and her no and so... that happened.
Canon-wise, it is a rape scene... the way it was scripted and all and both James and Sarah hated filming it and, I think, even Joss called it the almost rape scene at some point?!
I can't say black or white on is it an attempted rape not. It's all shaded in grey.
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I even took the thread (a very long time ago) regarding Dawn (in a story of mine) and had her feeling guilty for her part in it, but that's neither here nor there.
Regarding one thing that someone else brought up over on F'bk, and that I'd already thought of, was in that scene with Spike in the basement where he's chained up (after he attacks Andrew when the First was playing him) where he tells Buffy, 'Know what I did to girls Dawn's age,' etc.
I know it's cannon, but to me, that scene never, ever, ever rang as true. There was nothing revealed about Spike for 7 years, that would've led the audience to believe that besides murder and mayhem, that he would revel in rape. Now, Angelus, we know took pleasure in that.
To my way of thinking, he was just telling (goading) Buffy in order to get her to kill him to protect her, Dawn, and her friends/potentials, from him.
I mean, even the tone he says it in is so un-Spike-like. The hero, or anti-hero in him would have her end his life rather than risk hers.
That, or just sloppy over-the-top writing, trying to justify the scene.
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I by no means think he has a healthy relationship with sex & violence (as evidenced by most of the above, not to mention his relationship with Drusilla), but I definitely think rape would be crossing a line for him. And outside of that moment, when it's obvious Spike's motivating factor there is to get Buffy to kill him, there's never been any indication of his having crossed that line before.
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But, she was so messed up that the only way she could she could allow herself that escapism, is by using him.
After he gets the soul, (spurned on by the bathroom scene) he realizes the depth to which they both had sunk, and that she'd used him. Not that he didn't enjoy himself, but it was at his own expense. Without the soul, perhaps, he just didn't have the objectivity to see or care about his own self in the scenario.
It always galls me to no end that it's that idiot Riley (jarringly inserted back into the story line) that spurns her to finally break up with Spike, as though what he represents (after how shitty he was to her) makes her see that she couldn't keep using Spike (scene with Tara). The whole doctor/egg thing was really lame as a sub-plot line.
And her calling him, 'William' - oh, that smarted. I don't even get that. She's saying I really see you, the man, but breaking up with your most vulnerable self, even though I've been using and abusing Spike? I just don't get that, unless it's just to put an exclamation point on it, or hurt him more. Nope, don't get it.
Great essay
(Anonymous) 2018-10-12 07:05 pm (UTC)(link)Re: Great essay
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Completely Agree
(Anonymous) 2018-12-09 10:26 pm (UTC)(link)That is absolutely the very LAST thing teen viewers - or men of any age - EVER needed to see modeled on TV. It's even more egregious that this pattern of interaction was repeated, week after week, within the context of a consensual, genuinely caring relationship between two people who have repeatedly literally saved one another's lives. What a horrible example to set forth, particularly within our own "Rape Culture". .
The way Josh portrays their encounters, how would ANYONE ever know WHEN Buffy's "no" genuinely MEANS 'No'?
What an especially horrible example to put forth, on a show ostensibly meant to show people how to navigate the ambiguities and difficulties of adolescence! This relationship portrayal set up uncounted numbers of men to violate the trust of women they may have genuinely cared for, because they believed, based on this awful example, that her 'no' wasn't genuine.
I myself was raped by a friend who was a huge BtVS fan, and who (being blond & blue eyed, and good looking) undoubtedly identified with the Spike character. I wasn't a fan of the show, at the time, but now, in retrospect, after watching the Spuffy arc, I now have to wonder to what extent one of the most traumatic events of my entire life may have been at least partially created by the FALSE belief that "no" sometimes (if not often) actually means "yes"?
I'm SURE (looking back on my own horrific situation) that the guy who raped me was most definitely influenced by Josh's portrayal of a "romance" - or at least consensual, and hot sexual encounters - starting out with the female clearly SAYING "No!". I have to wonder how many other women were victimized in real life, as a direct result of the confusion Josh sowed, with his incredibly dysfunctional Buffy & Spike portrayal, concerning the issue of consent?
Moving on to address what is actually going on in this scene, between these two people, given their specific romantic and sexual history together:
I agree with you 100%.
Spike is NOT trying to actually rape Buffy. No way, no how.
I say that as someone who is herself a rape survivor, and has counseled young girls who have also survived sexual and other forms of abuse. I have a less than zero tolerance policy for rape or sexual coercion in any form whatsoever.
But in his defense, in this specific scenario, Spike was simply following their usual - HIGHLY DYSFUNCTIONAL - "script". In the past, Buffy always genuinely wanted him to keep pushing past her superficial "no".
It also matters hugely that in the "Buffyverse" Spike doesn't actually have the physical ability to rape Buffy. Meanwhile she has the ability to kick him through the bathroom wall if she wants to, and they are both utterly clear on that concept.
Spike isn't using "vamp strength" force on Buffy either - they're just having a little (potentially sexy) "tussle", right at the start of this encounter. As pointed out by the OP, above, EVERY ONE of their previous sexual encounters has started in much the same way, either with Buffy saying "No" but clearly Meaning "Yes!" and/or with physical violence as their "foreplay".
The instant Buffy genuinely fights back Spike indeed does get brutally slammed against the far wall of the bathroom - and at that juncture, he Immediately STOPS. He makes no attempt whatsoever to violently overcome Buffy's resistance. Moreover, he is clearly utterly horrified, once he understands she really was seriously saying "no" this time. He completely understands that he has truly transgressed and has *genuinely* crossed a boundary - for the First time in their relationship (Buffy's numerous previous "no's" notwithstanding).
Spike is clearly absolutely mortified by the entire situation. He was the gallant poet, the ultimate Victorian era "Gentleman" - always extremely courtly towards the women he loved. Spike was absolutely the farthest thing from being a rapist, whether in his original human lifetime or after he became a vampire.
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(Anonymous) 2019-04-23 06:33 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2019-06-16 03:01 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2019-09-13 03:30 am (UTC)(link)Bringing up Spike and Buffy's past sexual encounters is quite apologist-y. It doesn't matter how often they'd had sex, or how rough it was; even if they'd had sex 5 minutes earlier, she didn't want it THIS TIME. Therefore, it was an assault.
I think the only thing we can fairly say about this scene is that it wasn't *premeditated* rape.
I can agree that Spike didn't WANT to rape Buffy; he wanted to have sex with her. But because she didn't want to, she experienced his actions as an attempt to rape her.
Some assaults can start out with one person (A) sincerely wanting to seduce or pleasure the other person (B). B may be sleeping, or unenthused, or actively protesting and resisting, but A is thinking that if they can just kiss or touch them the right way, B will get turned on and enjoy themselves. A has no interest in overpowering, hurting, raping, or even frightening B, and has every intention of stopping if B doesn't become willing. But B doesn't know this, and has no idea how long they're going to have to keep resisting, or how violent A might get. When A stops, they believe it was before the encounter became a sexual assault. But to B, this has been a sexual assault THE WHOLE TIME.
Those who don't see this scene as attempted rape seem to think there has to be malicious intent beforehand; without that, it's just, what? A "misunderstanding"? This is rape culture. What makes it rape or sexual assault is when the other person hasn't given consent. That's it. The first person's intentions don't make a difference in how the victim experiences the trauma of being assaulted.
You're looking at it from Spike's side and thinking he couldn't have known Buffy didn't want it.* But if you think about it from Buffy's side, she couldn't have known that he didn't know she didn't want it! As far as she could tell, he knew and DIDN'T CARE. She couldn't have known that he would stop, so every moment was terrifying.
*This is why it's so important we change the paradigm from "No means no" to "Only yes means yes"! Sexual encounters shouldn't be one person trying to see how much they can get away with before the other person says no. The other person shouldn't have to tolerate being touched or groped, and then have to repeat themselves or struggle until the first person is convinced it's a "real" no.
I just watched "Hush", in which Anya gives Xander the "finger in hole" signal. There's one way to communicate consent! :)
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But, even having said that, I still don't disagree with you. 🤷♀️ I guess that just really further cements the overall complicated-ness/messed-up-ness of their relationship & consent as a whole.
The only thing I disagree with you about is you thinking my bringing up their previous sexual encounters was somehow meant to be apolegetic for the "Seeing Red" encounter, when that was not my intention at all.
"Bringing up Spike and Buffy's past sexual encounters is quite apologist-y. It doesn't matter how often they'd had sex, or how rough it was; even if they'd had sex 5 minutes earlier, she didn't want it THIS TIME. Therefore, it was an assault."
My point in bringing up their previous sexual encounters was that they all followed exactly the same pattern; the same pattern we see in "Seeing Red." It wasn't that she didn't want it THIS TIME, it was that she seemingly didn't want it ANY of the times, & yet all of their previous sexual encounters *were* consensual. I wasn't at all saying that just because they'd had sex before, rough or otherwise, that that should mean they should have sex this time & that it should have been consensual regardless. I was saying *none* of their previous encounters contained any kind of explicit consent (just the opposite, in fact), until they were actually in the act of having sex. Exactly how the scene in "Seeing Red" plays out, until it doesn't.
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(Anonymous) 2020-06-23 07:06 pm (UTC)(link)no subject
He's trying to convince Buffy to kill him, &, as we know, Spike's a fan of hyperbole. I've always viewed that scene as Spike trying to come up with the worst thing he could think of, in order to convince Buffy to actually kill him,, leaving it purposefully vague, so Buffy could fill in the blanks herself, with the worst thing *she* can think of. And none of that to me says that he's actually speaking truthfully, or specifically about sexual assault. Considering this is literally the *only* time anything even vaguely like sexual assault has been mentioned in his past, & the complete context in which he says it (ie: trying to convince Buffy to kill him), it just never struck me as based on anything actually true.
Mostly agree!
(Anonymous) 2020-08-05 02:36 pm (UTC)(link)It doesn't make it any less heartbreaking to watch but I do feel the distinction is important and also viewing it through the lens of deeply depressed and self-loathing buffy and a soul-less Spike.
BUT - the big thing here is that he DOES admit to raping past bite victims in the show. Remember, he talks at one point about how you "leave just enough blood so that when you...you know...they still scream." I can't remember if it's the episode he's coaching Buffy on how he killed the other slayers or before that. But he definitely mentions that - which I've always assumed meant rape, especially since biting has always been an analogy for sexual expression in Buffy verse. But rape wasn't part of his humanity as William, which he keeps far more off, even as a demon vamp without a soul, than Liam ever did as a HUMAN with a soul, so I think that distinction is important too to the hardness of Seeing Red.
But I also wanted to say, even though this is years old (lol) a few of your episode numbers are off (entropy is 6.18, as you were is 6.15) and a bunch of the videos embeds are broken too.
Re: Mostly agree!
SPIKE: I'm not talking about the cellar. The people in the cellar got off easy. I'm talking about me. Buffy, you have never met the real me.
BUFFY: (crosses arms) Believe me, I'm well aware of what you're capable of.
SPIKE: No, you got off easy too. (stands) Do you know how much blood you can drink from a girl before she'll die? I do. You see, the trick is to drink just enough to know how to damage them just enough so that they'll still cry when you— (chokes up) 'cause it's not worth it if they don't cry.
BUFFY: It's not your fault. You're not the one doing this.
SPIKE: I already did it. It's already done. (paces, then steps purposefully toward Buffy) You wanna know what I've done to girls Dawn's age? (beat) This is me Buffy. You've got to kill me before I get out.
Contextually, this scene is Spike trying to convince Buffy to kill him, because he's been killing people unknowingly. I think he thought of the worst thing he could possibly imagine that might prompt her to do so, & the fact that it was the implication of raping young girls, means that *he* thinks that's the worst thing he could possibly do. I think the chances of him actually having done so are less than slim-to-none, particularly as, like I said, he's going to say anything to convince Buffy to kill him. Considering this is literally the *only* time anything even vaguely like sexual assault has been mentioned in his past, & the complete context in which he says it (ie: trying to convince Buffy to kill him), it just never struck me as based on anything actually true.
Thanks for commenting (even years later! ☺)
ETA: Thanks for noting the incorrect episode numbers! I think I must have typoed one wrong & then just continued from that count. I'll fix it up.
Differing Opinion
(Anonymous) 2020-09-07 10:14 am (UTC)(link)I have actually seen this same reasoning you've presented numerous times.
Aside from the fact that this theory comes off like the rationale of rape apologists and victim-blamers (I understand that is not your intention, but it does), there’s also just no way it’s true. Throughout the scene Buffy is crying, screaming, pleading, and crawling to escape, and up until she kicked him into the wall, Spike was angry and focused on “making her feel it”. Her previous “no means yes” behaviors and their violent sex doesn't even come close to any of that. There’s absolutely no mistaking her refusal. As for Spike's physical ability to rape her: Buffy is stronger than he is, but she had just been injured patrolling. That's why he was able to overpower her.
When Spike goes back to his crypt he says “What have I done?”, but more importantly he says “WHY DIDN'T I DO IT?”, and proceeds to talk about the chip and his inability to be monster or man. That all points to the fact that under normal circumstances Spike would have considered rape a viable response to rejection, and he doesn’t understand why he didn’t try again after being kicked across the room. It also points to the fact that, yes, he has raped women before, just as he said in Never Leave Me. He may have wanted Buffy to kill him, but how does that make what he said untrue? All the talk about how much blood to drain from a girl and how it's no fun if she doesn't scream...that would be an incredibly detailed an elaborate lie, no?
Another point that I never see brought up (can you tell I have also been holding this opinion in for years?) that supports his lines in Never Leave Me, specifically the "you've never met the real me" and "you don't know what I'm capable of" parts, is the fact that Spike is one of the worst vampires on record. It's mentioned multiple times throughout the series. In School Hard, Angel—who knows Spike better than anyone else on the show— says: “He's worse. Once he starts something he doesn’t stop until everything in his path is dead.”
In Angel Season 5, after an incorporeal Spike comes out of the amulet at Wolfram & Hart, Wesley specifically says he is “second only to”, at which point Angel cuts in and says “Me.” So everyone who has either studied vampires professionally (including that female Watcher in BtVS season 5 who wrote her dissertation on him) or met Spike pre-Sunnydale agrees that he is the SECOND WORST vampire on record. Yet somehow, many fans are of the opinion that he didn’t or wouldn’t do the awful things mentioned in canon about his past, even going so far as to justify things he actually does during the show, including attempted rape. That doesn't make sense to me.
The reason this bothers me as a Spike fan is that I see so many others whitewash his character in posts like this, and the only motivation I can see is that people WANT this to be true. They want to believe Spike was never such a bad guy, and they lean on his ability to love without a soul as proof. But love is no substitute for benevolence. His soulless love was real, but it certainly wasn't good.
It seems like so many fans are actively trying to interpret things in a different way to make him look better. I don't mean to gatekeep but I just don't understand not accepting all the parts of this complex character. He did what he did, he was what he was, and to me it does a disservice to the most well-developed character in the series to try and explain the ugly parts away. The attempted rape is the most frequently rationalized behavior, but I've seen people go so far as to claim he never tortured people with railroad spikes because of that one line in Fool for Love. That's silly. Joss Whedon is notorious for heavy-handed dramatic irony, and that was a perfect example.
This got really long, sorry, it's just I truly NEVER see my opinions in the fandom haha!
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(Anonymous) 2021-01-28 01:46 am (UTC)(link)The last bit though I don't agree with. In Never leave me he said "you got off easy" as a clear reference to the "scene" and then talks about the girls he's hurt. Add that to the fact that he said "Dru made me a vampire, you made me a monster" to Angel and we all know what Angelus did to the gypsy girl & Holt's wife, with plenty of innuendo about it being normal for them. I draw the conclusion that rape was part of the blood orgies those 4 would indulge in. They taking your blood, your life, why would they stop at your body?
I don't think he enjoyed it as much though... It's not in his personality. No challenge in it.
He's there for his mom. Hes there for Dru, even after she left him. Look at how he comforted Willow when she thought she wasn't good enough to bite. How he behaves with Joyce and Dawn. Soothing Tara is just another example. I think Spikes human side was a nurturer and his demon doesn't care about the weak as they aren't a challenge.
That said if you spent 100 yrs learning to mix lust & blood & violence (and probably alot of yelling of "no") it would prob be quite easy to loose your head in a moment of desperation. Which he did.